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Understanding body and growth

GCSpyder
Koi Addict

Jan 17, 2006, 6:48 PM

Post #1 of 22 (1940 views)
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Understanding body and growth	Can't Post

Hi guys,

This is a subject that I am currently preoccupied with. My view is one which is obviously fragmented but hopefully, one which I can build over time. Hope to hear from you as well as to what your views are.

This was the picture that I posted earlier on the Ocean gang thread on the Maruyama growth. The pictures are pulled to show the full picture without any consideration for scale.

GCSpyder
Koi Addict

Jan 17, 2006, 7:02 PM

Post #2 of 22 (1934 views)
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Re: [GCSpyder] Understanding body and growth [In reply to]	Can't Post

Looking at picture above, we know that Ocean 2 is bigger than Ocean 3. As far as length difference is concerned, it is about 23%. But if you look at the weight difference, it is 100%. To present that size difference, I make a scaled, visual perspective just for information.

Looking at the statistics, it might be worthwhile to consider the weight dimension as a viable proxy to determine growth/girth dimension. The weight dimension can also tell us that our koi, though stop growing in terms of length, is putting on girth. That might be a sign that it is reaching some point of growth saturation soon. With skill, perhaps we can continue to coax further growth from the koi if other states of the koi (eg beni) is not yet finished. Or perhaps it is a sign to us that the koi is reaching its full potential and we need to finish its development.

GCSpyder
Koi Addict

Jan 17, 2006, 7:09 PM

Post #3 of 22 (1931 views)
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Re: [GCSpyder] Understanding body and growth [In reply to]	Can't Post

This is another comparison make between 2 koi of similar length dimension (61cm). Which do you prefer? Remember that we are talking body only.

- The shiro is 17% lighter
- The Kujaku is a male while the shiro is a female
- Based on past records, the Kujaku will probably slow down in growth while the shiro still can put in more length. The challenge is whether the shiro can improve on its body conformation.

What do you think?

Cheers..

weetin
Koi Lover

Jan 17, 2006, 11:51 PM

Post #4 of 22 (1892 views)
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Re: [GCSpyder] Understanding body and growth [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi GCSpyder,

This is a interesting topic to discuss. Wink

I strongly agree that normaly koi will grow in length till it hit the limit (could internal factor - eg. gene, or external factor - eg. pond size), there after, it will put on mass.

But another factor also due to sex; female is normaly bigger than male, and female koi after breeding, will tend to eat more and put on more weight.

Don't know right or wrong Angelic

... Haha...

Cheer,
Weetin

GCSpyder
Koi Addict

Jan 18, 2006, 8:44 AM

Post #5 of 22 (1878 views)
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Re: [weetin] Understanding body and growth [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Weetin,

We witness really phenomenal growth in Tosai in the first year precisely because length coming before mass. I think the real challenge for us (assuming sufficient enough pond size) is after the koi reach about 55cm. The food required is so much more than when it was about 45cm, perhaps more than double as the weight is about double. Can we do something here or is it pure genes from here onwards? The statistics tell us how it is heading but can we do something to alter the course?

On the subject of gender, again it is true that female is normally bigger than male.

Looking at the Kujaku above, although it is male, it looks big and nice but it is probably all fat inside the koi. The shiro is lighter but it does get bigger when it is carrying weight. In this case, it would have helped if it has bigger tail tube when the body (tummy) gets bigger.

Cheers..

weetin
Koi Lover

Jan 19, 2006, 11:08 AM

Post #6 of 22 (1802 views)
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Re: [GCSpyder] Understanding body and growth [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi GCSpyder & all,

Just to share a few charts, think it's a reference for us to check on how's our koi growth Smile

...

Cheer

Weetin

(This post was edited by weetin on Jan 19, 2006, 11:12 AM)

Attachments:

growth_rate.jpg (64.4 KB)

cmpermonth.JPG (69.5 KB)

GCSpyder
Koi Addict

Jan 19, 2006, 6:27 PM

Post #7 of 22 (1751 views)
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Re: [weetin] Understanding body and growth [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Weetin,

Thanx for the very useful chart. As mentioned earlier, there is strong possibility of koi gaining girth/weight although its growth could be tapering. By tracking weight, we might be able to see that dimension too. That would give a bigger picture. Once again, nice charts!

Cheers..

Tan Lee King
Member

Jan 20, 2006, 12:28 PM

Post #8 of 22 (1716 views)
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Re: [weetin] Understanding body and growth [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi weetin,

I've problem reading the 2nd chart. How can the length or girth go up, then down and then up again. I will be grateful if you can assist to elaborate them.

Tan Lee King - Cheers.

weetin
Koi Lover

Jan 21, 2006, 11:45 AM

Post #9 of 22 (1669 views)
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Re: [Tan Lee King] Understanding body and growth [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Lee King,

As for the second chart, it show the growth rate i.e that is to mean every month the koi is expected to grow by how many cm.... So for the first two month, the fish is expected to grow from 1.7cm/mth drop to 1.5cm/mth, then there later the growth rate will pick-up to 2.4cm in the 4th month....

Hence, for the first 16 mths, the grow rate is above 2cm/mth.... and thereafter it will drop down....

If we want the fish to grow big, then the first 1.5 year is the most important period Tongue

.

Cheer

weetin

dechoong
Member

Jan 24, 2006, 1:06 AM

Post #10 of 22 (1608 views)
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Re: [GCSpyder] Understanding body and growth [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Spyder,

Even without knowing the sex of both kois, I'll still pick the shiro on body conformation. The Kujaku has a glaring shortcoming in the structure of its head. It won't get much bigger than it already is with such head structure... too short, triangular and pointy.

I'm going off topic for a while to bring up an issue with a kohaku of mine. If you remember a Yohei kohaku I've bought last April which was about 33cm as a tosai, it is now 63cm. Though its growth looks pretty impressive, its body doesn't Unimpressed

. This fella is simply long like a tube and looks male to me. However, I've not been able to sex it because my dealer couldn't squeeze any milt from it. I've been told Yohei kohaku are bred with Magoi blood hence their growth characteristics are very similar with Matsunosuke... ie, they put on length first before accumulating body mass. I've seen young (nissai) Matsunosuke sanke and they look like a long tube too... not much to look at. However, the magic happens when they are sansai and above when their body fills out.

The thing is, I don't know what to do with this long tube-like thing Crazy

. I have a male Sakai kohaku (remember the little Sakai which I've posted last Feb?) which is about 58cm now and its body has so much more bulk. Even my Ogata "chicken shit" Shusui has greater girth by proportion Unsure

. I do not know if I've got a yet to bloom beauty at hand or simply a lost cause Crazy

. Please advise.

Rgds,
Dennis

chewed
Member

Jan 24, 2006, 1:13 AM

Post #11 of 22 (1606 views)
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Re: [dechoong] Understanding body and growth [In reply to]	Can't Post

dennis,

i wouldn't worry about your Yohei kohaku for at least another year. If by the 4th year the kohaku still a skinny little bugger, then maybe it's time you get worried.

APLBW
Koi Lover

Jan 24, 2006, 1:22 AM

Post #12 of 22 (1605 views)
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Re: [GCSpyder] Understanding body and growth [In reply to]	Can't Post

HI GC and Weetin,

Interesting see you guys measuring and charting the kois progress. Looking like you are really into statistics.
Weetin.... can clearly see from your charts on the gradient of the curves to show the declining growth rate.... intersting....

GC, with the added dimension of weight...... was wondering if there could be a possible BMI chart (body mass index)for the ideal body weight for male and female. Know that the BMI index is not too accurate for humans cos the index keep saying that I am morbidly obese... Pirate

Not too sure if the weight will shed some light to the possible identification of male or female tosai too.... Smile

Cheers

chewed
Member

Jan 24, 2006, 9:07 AM

Post #13 of 22 (1590 views)
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Re: [APLBW] Understanding body and growth [In reply to]	Can't Post

adrian,

you refering to the old BMI index, right? Tongue

You should be just nice according to the new BMI standard Cool

GCSpyder
Koi Addict

Jan 24, 2006, 9:43 AM

Post #14 of 22 (1587 views)
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Re: [dechoong] Understanding body and growth [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Dennis,

Thanx for your view on the Kujaku and shiro. Frankly, I agree with your view and think that the Kujaku has hit a wall. It is a male after all and I am enjoying it for what it is able to achieve.

From 33cm to 63cm is really fast growth and that means that something has to give. In this case, girth development is just not there yet. I personally take this as a good sign. That is also one of the reasons why I chart weight as well, to know how that develop compares to another with bigger girth and shorter length. Have you read the latest copy of koi-bito on the previous Maruyama showa GC? It was very thin when it was in the 60+cm range at Sansai. You can use that as a reference too.

Actually, picture update would be easier for us to appraise together. Let's see and discuss this further. Interesting.

cheers..

GCSpyder
Koi Addict

Jan 24, 2006, 9:46 AM

Post #15 of 22 (1584 views)
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Re: [APLBW] Understanding body and growth [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi APLBW,

haha... I think the Index will be an interesting idea. I will pick up on this idea and continue to collect data. Once I have sufficient data, perhaps we can formulate the index for reference which is more relevant to tropical koi development.

I think it is probably to listen to what your BMI is telling you. Time to gallop, yeeha!! Angelic

cheers..

dechoong
Member

Jan 25, 2006, 4:00 AM

Post #16 of 22 (1548 views)
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Re: [GCSpyder] Understanding body and growth [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Spyder,

Talk about fast growth... I've bought a Chagoi that came into the dealer's last July for RM80. The batch average 15cm then and you are not going to believe it's almost 60cm now Tongue

. That's averaging 7.5cm per month over the last 6 months Angelic

. I'm really curious how big this lady is going to get in my 12 tons pond Smile

.

Cheers,
Dennis

GCSpyder
Koi Addict

Jan 25, 2006, 8:39 AM

Post #17 of 22 (1532 views)
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Re: [dechoong] Understanding body and growth [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Dennis,

That's amazing length development. It must be eating all the way to your bank! Does it push aside all your other koi when it eats? That's what they tend to do, bully. And it can be a situation if the pond is too small and the feed spread is not far enough. How about the body and scalation?

cheers..

APLBW
Koi Lover

Jan 26, 2006, 12:49 AM

Post #18 of 22 (1460 views)
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Re: [chewed] Understanding body and growth [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Chewed,

With the new standard, I am even worst..... shift goalpost like that..... sure kena mobidly obese one lah....
How I am accepted like a koi.... need to be fat fat... Laugh

Cheers

APLBW
Koi Lover

Jan 26, 2006, 12:53 AM

Post #19 of 22 (1459 views)
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Re: [GCSpyder] Understanding body and growth [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi GC,

Hahaha.... looks like the galloping is doing you good..... Hows the progress....? Promoted to mixed doubles already or not? Laugh

BTW..... I happened to chance on this website...... realise that the japanese have also weighed their kois.....

http://www.japan-nishikigoi.org/ecology.html

Not too sure about their growth rate since they have 4 seasons over there.... but would be an interesting comparison.

Cheers Smile

dechoong
Member

Jan 26, 2006, 2:38 AM

Post #20 of 22 (1454 views)
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Re: [GCSpyder] Understanding body and growth [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Spyder,

She's a relatively gentle eater but constantly feeding. Each and every koi has their perculiar feeding habbits, and this Chagoi feeds like a "sweeper", gobbling down the pellets as she drift near the surface during meal time.

However, it's a different story when I feed her Kusuri paste food. She'll ram onto much bigger kois fighting for her share of this "delicacy". There's once (only about 45cm then) she darts straight onto my Maruboshi "bulging back" in an attempt to snatch a morsel of the Kusuri... ramming her entire nose section into the open mouth of my 65cm Maruboshi Laugh

. That is one incident I don't think I'll ever forget Sly

.

I do not have a pic of her yet but I'm posting a pic of an Aka Matsuba which has an identical head and body conformation to my Chagoi. She's muddy green in color and has a slight blemish to her scalation (one scale) on her left midsection... it looks like a small little loose thread on her netting Unsure

.

Cheers,
Dennis

Attachments:

593a.jpg (51.5 KB)

GCSpyder
Koi Addict

Jan 26, 2006, 8:31 AM

Post #21 of 22 (1442 views)
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Re: [APLBW] Understanding body and growth [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi APLBW,

I have put the gallop program on hold. Will have to get back on it soon.. Blush

Very simple and great site. Love the Japanese terms on the first 'parts'. Really appreciate you sharing. These are the kind of new information discovery that I like. Smile

Four seasons growth are more measured (I think). Ours can tend to balloon up when they reach about 60cm+. I think the practise of fasting our koi is important.

Cheers..

GCSpyder
Koi Addict

Jan 26, 2006, 8:34 AM

Post #22 of 22 (1441 views)
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Re: [dechoong] Understanding body and growth [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hi Dennis,

I guess that's why they are called the pigs of the rivers. Smile

Love the body of the Aka Matsuba. Now dying to see the actual picture of the chagoi. Nice!

cheers..

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