Home  


  Main Index MAIN
INDEX
Search Posts SEARCH
POSTS
Who's Online WHO'S
ONLINE
Log in LOG
IN

Home: Regional: Singapore:
butt ugly shiro - transformation?

 






First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All


GCSpyder
Koi Addict


Sep 12, 2005, 9:57 AM

Post #1 of 69 (2613 views)
Shortcut
butt ugly shiro - transformation? Can't Post

Hi guys,

This shiro was first surfaced in this thread http://www.koi.com.my/cgi-bin/koiforum/gforum.cgi?post=57741;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread.

I am extracting some of the previous comments for easier reference here. Sorry if I missed out anyone.

dttk - The Shiro looks good without too much sumi on the body but the head has quite a fair bit of sumi though. I hope some will clear up as the koi grows.
Koi38 - The shiro looks really nice on both side from sholder to tail. Sumi on the head is a bit all over the place but I'm sure it will clear up coz its only 6 months old
orion - The Utsuri....I don't know...looks like crap now...but maybe Ah Seng knows something I don't...so....CrazyWink
sankekoromo - Shiroji average. Head skin so thin can even see the skull. Shiro should have white head to go with the body color so not sure whether the head will become whiter
Dechoong - But base on the standard set by the Shiro expert (yes, the condo koi keeper Sly), for a young Shiro, go for one with as good a shiroji as possible and forget about the sumi pattern. Body conformation is of course a prerequisite. From the looks of this Shiro, it is a no no Unsure.

This will be a 2 part update. Remember that our objective is to learn. I will post the first picture first which is a composite of growth for comparison. I will give my comments later. Please feel free to critique. Smile



Cheers..


sankekoromo
Member


Sep 12, 2005, 12:09 PM

Post #2 of 69 (2587 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GCSpyder] butt ugly shiro - transformation? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi GCSpyder,

Look like its transforming into a beauty.Smile Its growing very well size already double up.
Sumi clearing up nicely especially on the head. Motoguro also thighten up. Shiroji quality still average. Doing well for a local breed. Will be interesting to see the sumi quality and it development.Smile
Sumi on the tip of the mouth might clear off as well and the underlying sumi will emerge? Crazy

Thanks
Koh


GCSpyder
Koi Addict


Sep 12, 2005, 2:04 PM

Post #3 of 69 (2567 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sankekoromo] butt ugly shiro - transformation? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Koh,

I have much to add and more information to share on this koi. I would like to hear from more whether they have any feedback on this koi based on the photo I have submitted. Really hoping that more would voice their opinion, both positive and negative.

cheers..


cheehui68
Koi Lover


Sep 12, 2005, 9:22 PM

Post #4 of 69 (2515 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GCSpyder] butt ugly shiro - transformation? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi GCS, I am really jealous about your koi keeping skill. 1st is the Shusui, then comes the Asagi and now the Shiro Utsuri. All grow so fast within such a short time and turn into such beauty. The head has cleared up nicely and the Sumi is getting darker, great job! Tell us all about your secret weapon!! Cheers!


Yishun Koi House (S'pore)
http://nskoi.com


GCSpyder
Koi Addict


Sep 12, 2005, 10:17 PM

Post #5 of 69 (2506 views)
Shortcut
Re: [cheehui68] butt ugly shiro - transformation? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Cheehui,

You are too kind with your words. Blush I flush my filters daily and have new water trickling all the time. I think the only reason why the head clear is because it is a female. That is why it is so important to find female for shiro utsuri, though I got lucky on this one. Female have the capability to absorb the yellow carotene (eg into eggs production but this one why be too young though) though I am surprised this one cleared so soon.

As to the sumi, I will share more information tomorrow morning. I took some closeups which will show you the state of the sumi but they are in my office notebook. Thanx for showing interest! Smile

Cheers..


Koi38
Senior Member


Sep 12, 2005, 10:32 PM

Post #6 of 69 (2502 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GCSpyder] butt ugly shiro - transformation? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi GC,

I just want to say that I'm very impressed on its development of this koi and your skillsCoolCoolCool I also glad that the shiro on the head is clearing up and hope to clear a bit more. I has grow a lot since and body conformation is much better that before. I love the touch of black in pectoral fins. How can you be so luckyAngelicAngelicAngelic

My one cent opinionWink

rgds,
Jon

"DuKu Friendly"
_____________________________________
"No one is ever too old to know better"

http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/Koi38/


APLBW
Koi Lover

Sep 12, 2005, 11:34 PM

Post #7 of 69 (2484 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GCSpyder] butt ugly shiro - transformation? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow GCShocked

Double its growth in less than 3 mths....Shocked Been feeding them 12 times a day?Laugh

Like the growth and the head has definatly cleared up.

Although the sumi has cleared up and darkened.... personally I was hoping to see more sumi that extends across the back and shoulder... (just being picky...Blush)

Question.....
Would you see more sumi developing and how or what indicators do you udentify to hint the potential in sumi.

Thanks Smile


GCSpyder
Koi Addict


Sep 13, 2005, 9:18 AM

Post #8 of 69 (2463 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Koi38] butt ugly shiro - transformation? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Jon, APLBW and others,

Thanx for your kind encouragements. I will be going into further impressions of this koi based on my observation and I have to say that it will be different from some of your feedback.

Behaviour - This koi is very active but futive, eats like a male. It jumped many times, hit the floor and thrashed back into the waters. Even while it was in the bowl, it was jumping and I was afraid that it might damage its back when it landed back into the shallow water in the bowl. The point of all this is that it is highly stressed by the time I took the pictures. 2 things can happen, very spidery skin and fading sumi (if no good). There was a certain degree of stressed skin, but it showed surprising well, so it did indicate to me there might be good things to come in terms of shiroji quality. Whatever sumi that was there stayed and did not fade further. That was a good sign

Growth rate - Although this koi has doubled its length, it has not grown as fast as the other kois in the pond. Body is ok and good to know that it turn out female.

Sumi quality - I am not convinced about the state of the sumi quality at this moment. It has tightened up and cleared up but I can see indicate to me that the sumi is thin and maybe Nabesumi.

Let's take a look at the darker left sumi on the body



The center core are white with only black lining round the scales. My sense of it is that it will probably continue to fade for the next 6 months.



We can see clearer how the sumi has tightened up on the head area (slightly out of focus). The powdery remains shows how the top layer is disappearing. As Koh mentioned, perhaps the unlying layer will come on in the next 1-2 years. The sumi on the snout is still vague and far from finished. Perhaps that might fade too.


(This post was edited by GCSpyder on Oct 6, 2005, 3:12 PM)


GCSpyder
Koi Addict


Sep 13, 2005, 9:26 AM

Post #9 of 69 (2459 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GCSpyder] butt ugly shiro - transformation? [In reply to] Can't Post


I am surprised to see that the sumi at the back is even more kage or sunken than the front area. Generally speaking, back sumi is normally stronger then front sumi



This close up will show the state of the back sumi which is hardly exciting at the moment. The shiny scale at the shiroji is a revelation. This is what is known as silver and is indicative of good guanine deposits in the scale.

Shiroji - The silver plus the earlier skin observation tells me there might something to look out for as far as skin quality is concerned
Sumi - Will it sink now and emerge later? At this moment, I think it is probably nabesumi and not too optimistic

These are the 2 main things that is of interest to me in this koi for the moment.

Is there anyone with experience with this kind of sumi and have seen its development to maturity? I would really love to hear and learn from you.

cheers..


(This post was edited by GCSpyder on Oct 6, 2005, 3:13 PM)


cheehui68
Koi Lover


Sep 13, 2005, 6:36 PM

Post #10 of 69 (2424 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GCSpyder] butt ugly shiro - transformation? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi GCS, About your water replacement regime, I am curious to know how big is your pond and how mauch water you replace everyday? Thanks.


Yishun Koi House (S'pore)
http://nskoi.com


sankekoromo
Member


Sep 13, 2005, 8:35 PM

Post #11 of 69 (2408 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GCSpyder] butt ugly shiro - transformation? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi GCSpyder,

IMHO sumi is thick on the root of the scale so white unfilled part in the middle of the scale could become totally back in future. Wink Some of the scales have jet black sumi so all is not lost yet. Wink

How long have it been in the bowl for you to take this pic? I ask this cos if the sumi remain much the same after about 5 minutes since you took it out from your pond then quality of the sumi is fine. Smile

I'm more interested on the shiroji development. A Shiro utsuri with snow white shiroji is a stunning beauty. Your Shiro look like got soft shiroji and skin. This will entice the underlying sumi to emerge in a shorter time frame. Smile

In some bloodline the sumi will recede temporary and come back later with a vengeance. Sly If this is the case normally it'll takes about 1-2 years for the sumi to return. Smile Kindly update us in another 6 months times. Shouldn't be a disappointment.Wink

Thanks
Koh


GCSpyder
Koi Addict


Sep 13, 2005, 8:45 PM

Post #12 of 69 (2404 views)
Shortcut
Re: [cheehui68] butt ugly shiro - transformation? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Cheehui,

It is a small pond but the water change rate is about 5% every day. Smile

cheers..


GCSpyder
Koi Addict


Sep 13, 2005, 8:49 PM

Post #13 of 69 (2397 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sankekoromo] butt ugly shiro - transformation? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Koh,

Yes, I noted earlier that koi with bad sumi will fade after all the stress that this koi went through. It is definitely more than 5 minutes and the sumi remains where it was without fading and that is definitely a good sign. I have one other shiro that had most of its sumi sunken. The quality of sumi is very different from this one. Anyway, I am keeping it for learning purposes and reference too.

Thanx for your comments as always. Smile

Cheers..


(This post was edited by GCSpyder on Sep 13, 2005, 8:49 PM)


sankekoromo
Member


Sep 13, 2005, 10:18 PM

Post #14 of 69 (2382 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GCSpyder] butt ugly shiro - transformation? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi GCSpyder,

Since you said that this Shiro is of Matsue line so here are a couple of pic of Shiro Utsuri from the original Matsue farm breed by Itsuka san for your kind references.

Thanks
Koh




weetin
Koi Lover

Sep 13, 2005, 11:08 PM

Post #15 of 69 (2378 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GCSpyder] butt ugly shiro - transformation? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi GCSpyder,
What a wonderful nice shiro, especially the development of the sumi amd the white, really respect your skill BlushBlushBlush... Will inform Ah Seng the outcome of the fish, I think he will be pround of it Cool. Oh yes, I do had another three shiro of the same batch, do you want me to post...

Cheer,
Weetin


GCSpyder
Koi Addict


Sep 14, 2005, 8:19 AM

Post #16 of 69 (2362 views)
Shortcut
Re: [weetin] butt ugly shiro - transformation? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Weetin,

I would love you to post and let's see how many different kind of sumi we can identify and see if there is any similarity in skin quality. This is the kind of discussion that I love best! Cool

To be honest, I am not exactly sure of the sumi on my current koi but let's wait.

Cheers..


GCSpyder
Koi Addict


Sep 14, 2005, 8:21 AM

Post #17 of 69 (2358 views)
Shortcut
Re: [sankekoromo] butt ugly shiro - transformation? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Koh,

Would you like to share more information regarding this koi? Does it belong to anyone here? Very nice sumi. Very interested to know how it will develop further, especially those that disappeared (from Tosai pix)

cheers..


Eric Lim
Koi Lover


Sep 14, 2005, 8:41 AM

Post #18 of 69 (2358 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GCSpyder] butt ugly shiro - transformation? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi! Koi kakis,


I'm no expert in Shiro Utsuri or Showa. I always got problem getting good sumi with our S'pore water quality. Blush
I too was surprise by the change from 17 to 34 bu...Hm, always learning.

Base on your photo here SankeKoromo is right in that under stress - bad sumi just faded off. I saw these cases many times (in past KCS shows). On Friday benching night - just look shocking that people entered such koi (some even looks dark brown in the sumi). But next day, Sat - wow! so difference....Wink

I think present surface sumi = some may lost/shift.
But the surmerged sumi will come out.
If you wonder why the 5 Showa result = my last placing was that koi - it is becoz there was no surmerge/ recticulated sumi. Clear shiro patterns. Thats why I don't think the sumi can improved anymore....(talking abt the showa)

Ok...back to this Shiro-Utsuri. As to the fade ginrin. Lets hope it goes off. Coz it is not likey be a good ginrin piece. Crazy At 34Bu, should not be having such ginrin. at 15/18 Bu = is ok....Pirate


Cheers.....Smile


Rdgs,
Eric


sankekoromo
Member


Sep 14, 2005, 10:19 AM

Post #19 of 69 (2340 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GCSpyder] butt ugly shiro - transformation? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi GCSpyder,

Sorry this Shiro does not belong to anyone locally. Unimpressed Not sure how good Itsuka san its breeder is on Shiro.
One similarity with your Shiro is that sumi on the tail become lighter at 13 months. I don't have any pic after that if not can know whether the tail sumi get any darker. I'm quite sure it will though. Smile

Thanks
Koh


sankekoromo
Member


Sep 14, 2005, 10:20 AM

Post #20 of 69 (2340 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Eric Lim] butt ugly shiro - transformation? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Eric,

That's a great info for me to take note on Showa selection. Smile
GCSpyder note than it is not ginrin but guanine in the scales. One day we could take a closer look when we visit his pond. Cool

Thanks
Koh


GCSpyder
Koi Addict


Sep 14, 2005, 11:12 AM

Post #21 of 69 (2335 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Eric Lim] butt ugly shiro - transformation? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To


Ok...back to this Shiro-Utsuri. As to the fade ginrin. Lets hope it goes off. Coz it is not likey be a good ginrin piece. Crazy At 34Bu, should not be having such ginrin. at 15/18 Bu = is ok....Pirate

Hi Eric, Good to have you back! Appreciate your posts knowing the difficulty you have with your line. As Koh has already highlighted for me, it is not ginrin that we are looking at. It is guanine and is picked up through sunlight and photography. It is still a koi under development and see this is a positive sign for me. Cheers..


weetin
Koi Lover

Sep 14, 2005, 11:47 AM

Post #22 of 69 (2330 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GCSpyder] butt ugly shiro - transformation? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi GCSpyder,
Just some input for your shiro, bred on the 3 Sept 2004, the mother is the offspring of White Tiger, currently is about 65cm (if I'm not wrong Blush). So I heard from Ah Seng when I bought the batch of fish, He said look out for the shiroji, it must be as white as possible Smile... So from a general look of her, I think she is at the right way. The sumi will be more solid when time to come.

Cheer,
Weetin


GCSpyder
Koi Addict


Sep 14, 2005, 2:05 PM

Post #23 of 69 (2322 views)
Shortcut
Re: [weetin] butt ugly shiro - transformation? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Weetin,

thanx for the additional information. I am bearing in mind the line (they won't call it white tiger for nothing). That's why it is such an interesting subject. I am a student of sumi and the number of diferent kinds of sumi is fascinating. Let's see how it turns out.

Waiting for your pix posting Cool

Cheers..


weetin
Koi Lover

Sep 16, 2005, 11:12 PM

Post #24 of 69 (2269 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GCSpyder] butt ugly shiro - transformation? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi GCSpyder & all,
Sorry for all the waiting Tongue, here are the latest updated for all my shiro WT-1 Blush. Pls do give your comments.Tongue


Cheer,
Weetin


(This post was edited by weetin on Sep 16, 2005, 11:33 PM)
Attachments: P1000146a.JPG (36.6 KB)
  P1000153a.JPG (25.8 KB)


weetin
Koi Lover

Sep 16, 2005, 11:18 PM

Post #25 of 69 (2262 views)
Shortcut
Re: [GCSpyder] butt ugly shiro - transformation? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi GCSpyder & all,
This are the side viewBlush....




Cheer
Weetin


(This post was edited by weetin on Sep 16, 2005, 11:21 PM)
Attachments: P1000152a.JPG (43.7 KB)
  P1000154a.JPG (45.3 KB)

First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All
 
 



Search for (options) Back to Koi.com.my Main Page

  Disclaimer  Privacy Statement     
Copyright 2001~ 2002 Hileytech Sdn Bhd , All Rights Reserved.  
No part of the forum postings can be copied without prior permission from Hileytech Sdn Bhd and the Author of the Posting.
For comments and Suggestion, Please contact the Webmaster at koi@hileytech.com